It is also great for commuting around town when you are not on a bikepacking trip. This item is brand new. The author Graham Hodge out riding his bike. We strongly recommend that you register your bike with the National Bike Registry. 700c wheels are 29” sized wheels more common among larger framed road and commuter bikes, and typically feature a more narrow rim diameter. For more of our favorite bicycle recommendations, see our most popular Gear Guide stories: The Best Gear for Bikepacking and Bicycle Touring. It contains a spindle to which the crankset attaches and the bearings that allow the spindle and cranks to rotate. Last updated: May 21, 2020. We only want the same thing as you—the best gear at the best price. After riding hundreds of miles and several bikepacking routes, I began sewing my own bikepacking bags. That is true and can be a place to start, but let's look at this idea with the Salsa Fargo Apex 1. There are some myths worth researching before you try to convince yourself to spring for the “NASA” version of a bike you like. Although some routes may be more comfortable with a suspension mountain bike, we think most folks getting into bikepacking will be happy with hardtail and rigid mountain bikes. All rights reserved. December 14, 2020. There is no additional cost to you and the decision to buy something is up to you. Retail is $899, one size only, comes in Teal and Red. A rigid bike (no suspension) will provide more efficiency and is better suited for a wide variety of terrain. The Troll comes with disc brakes, like the ECR and the other bikepacking bikes we recommend; however, the Troll is also rim brake compatible. It’s an excellent alternative to the Salsa Fargo and an incredible deal for what you get for the money. The 27.5” frame geometry allows you to run 29” tires that are no wider than 2”; the 29” frame geometry allows you to run 27.5” plus tires. The Surly ECR is designed to run 27.5” or 29” tires depending on the frame size. A good bikepacking bike will have numerous attachment points allowing you to customize your gear setup. Biking across the country? You could think of tire clearance like a Venn diagram in which tire size, bike speed, and comfort overlap. We put these base layers to work, and came out with the best base layers for warmth, durability, comfort, wicking away sweat, and not retaining odor over time. The Surly Bridge Club is a versatile, reliable, and affordable rig that meets budget bikepacking bikes. The ECR has lots of mounting options making it excel compared to other bikes in our rankings for “packability.” It even has mounts for a trailer (should you wish to pull a trailer). But if you want more cushion in the tire area, the bike can accommodate up to 3” wide tires in both 27.5” and 29” wheel sizes (the x-small frame size does have some limitations on the 29” plus tire sizes so be sure to check with Salsa when figuring out what tire you can run). Modern mountain bikes often feature a 1x11, 1x12, 2x9 or 2x10 drivetrain (i.e., one gear at the pedals and 11 sprockets in the form of a cassette attached to your rear wheel). I’ve been working in the outdoor industry for the past eight years. If you use removable bikepacking bags without racks, that’s okay too. It's a budget bike, with a frame built in China (new builds ordered may mean costlier bikes b/c of Trump-era tarrifs). The Salsa Timberjack 27.5 Deore can handle technical singletrack and is budget-friendly. Mounting options are also referred to as bosses, braze-ons, or barnacles. For under $1,000, you can get a great gravel bikepacking bike. Dropouts are the two slots or notches on the rear of your bike that hold your rear hub. FILED IN (CATEGORIES & TAGS) Remember, though, when bikepacking, you are riding your bike on rougher roads and even trails. I’m not saying aluminum is bad, and steel is the only way to go. December 15, 2020. The Bridge Club has Surly’s rugged Chromoly steel frame and comes with 27.5 x 2.4” tires. Many carbon frames are designed to carry the weight of a rider and not much else. It’s our overall best bikepacking bike because of its comfort, versatility, and price. Your saddle height should be about 10-11cm less than your PBH. Not much of an upgrade since these are still non-tubeless ready and I would prefer the WTB. Photo courtesy Graham Hodge. Get Your Kids Hooked on Gravel with the 24″ Salsa Journeyman. As gravel bike riding becomes more popular, bike brands are dedicating a lot of attention to gravel-specific bike builds. The stock build features Salsa Woodchipper drop bars, a 1x11 drivetrain, and 29 x 2.2” tires. There’s a balance many riders try to find between the three and paying attention to tire clearance helps find your zone. You may find yourself at the conclusion that 2.4” tires are not that slow for how much comfort they may add to your ride, but your bike can only run 2” tires, and now you're stuck wondering how those 2.4” would feel. The Journeyman is the least expen… If you can afford it though, a steel frame may be the better long term investment—especially if you’re rough on your equipment. Other bicycle related stories you may like... Gear Reviews, Hiking, Thru-Hiking & Backpacking, Apparel and Footwear, Apparel, backpacking, Footwear, hiking shoes, hiking boots, trail running shoes, popular, backpacking, camping, footwear, apparel, hiking, camping-related, water sports, PFD, lifejacket, personal floatation device, life jacket, whitewater rafting, kayaking, packrafting, fishing, safety equipment, popular, life jackets, NRS, Stohlquist, Astral, Josette, The Best Women's Mountain Bike Shorts for 2021, The Best Touring Bikes 2020 (they make great commuter bikes, too! Find more info over at SalsaCycles.com . In the world of cycling, this can be anything from an unfinished alleyway to hundreds of miles of Forest Service gravel roads. It is designed to seamlessly transition between dirt, gravel, or paved city streets. Photo by Andrew Gage. New 2020 Salsa Flat Bar Claris Journeyman. Photo by Naomi Hudetz. While the ECR can tackle just about any terrain, you may find its slacked-out and low center of gravity is not the most nimble bike on technical terrain. It is just a well-rounded hardtail mountain bike that rips on singletrack but is comfortable enough to ride all day. Gravel bikes have sort of a medium angle, somewhere between road and mountain bikes. Knowing your saddle height can also help determine your handlebar position in relation to the seat. Photo by Graham Hodge. If you consider yourself more of a casual rider, you may want your bars even higher. The Surly ECR has a CroMoly steel frame and all the “barnacles” (mounting points) you could ever need to customize your bikepacking setup. Look no further. Product Details : Journeyman Sora 650 offers a great mix of speed and comfort for a variety of missions. Now you may be worried that the size medium would still feel too large and that perhaps a size small with a longer stem would be a good option. At Treeline, we want you to buy right the first time. Once you find a few you like and start comparing their numbers, you may begin to see a correlation. Compared with other bikes, it has more possibilities to adapt to meet your needs. Have original tires that can he used for clay or gravel riding. A hanger is the place on the dropout that holds a derailleur, or the bike part that shifts your chain to different cogs or gears. Email to a Friend. You could, of course, ride singletrack trails on a gravel bike and ride a mountain bike all day on gravel roads, but the appropriate bike would be more comfortable and fun. Essentially, it’s where your rear wheel goes. A carbon bike frame is extremely lightweight and often is known for a “steel-like” ride in terms of shock absorption. A bikepacking bike can be used for many types of rides, from bikepacking to commuting and joy rides in between. The stock fork is also a lightweight but sturdy carbon fork that is peppered with mounting points for racks, bottles, and anything cages. Adams, WA. Your PBH determines your stand over clearance, which is how much room you have in relation to how tall the bike is when standing over it. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. The Salsa Timberjack is the best singletrack mountain be found within the budget. While my operation is small, it has allowed me to work with multiple styles and brands of bikes. If possible, test ride the bikes you are considering. Item Description: Salsa Journeyman 650 Sora Bike 54cm bi ke with disc brakes & 18 Speed. Front end suspension on a mountain bike. These sorts of routes can have a dash of singletrack trails but mainly consist of double-track trails, fire lanes, and forest service gravel roads. Steel is an indispensable part of the Salsa lineup—it always has been. The Surly ECR excels in this category. Keep in mind how you plan to pack your bike (e.g., tent, sleeping bag, food, water) using the following: Reliability is a top priority for a bikepacking bike. Not much of an upgrade since these are still non-tubeless ready and I would prefer the WTB. Some of our most legendary models have been crafted from CroMoly, and our 2020 steel all-road bikes carry on that legacy. Suspension is used on bikes to soften the rider’s contact with rough terrain. The fatter the tire, the more comfortable the ride. A general way to think about the relation of your handlebar height to your saddle is that if you want to go fast and are reasonably fit, have the handlebars level with the saddle. Although it has fewer attachment points than the ECR (nearly every bike has fewer attachment points than the ECR) it can easily be fitted with all the bags, racks, or panniers you need for bikepacking adventures or city commutes. In all, the brand aimed to … Have you considered the Journeyman Apex 700 or 650? It is rugged, reliable, and excellent on muddy dirt tracks, fast-rolling gravel roads, and the occasional technical singletrack. Because a rigid fork consists of two non-moving metal supports, the manufacturer can add mount points to it without compromising the structural integrity of the fork. Singletrack bikepacking bikes often have a front suspension fork to handle the roots and rocks of rough trails (the Surly Karate Monkey, our top pick, comes in both a rigid and suspension stock build). Nearly every bikepacking adventure will cover a variety of road and trail conditions. Photo by Naomi Hudetz. I rode a 2017 version of this bike on many trips around the southeast and was sad to let it go when I decided to switch to gravel bikepacking (and a gravel bikepacking-specific bike). The Journeyman Claris 650 runs 27.5” tires and has all the attachment points you need to customize your bikepacking setup. Of course, not all bikepacking bags are the best for full grocery loads, but there are ways to adapt. Look for bikes with quality components, like our Surly and Salsa picks. Are you primarily interested in gravel riding or singletrack? ... As of June 2020, we're out of stock of this item and don't know if it will become available again. We researched 12+ of the best hiking and backpacking socks including mid-weight, lightweight, ultra-light, budget, blister-prevention, and non-wool picks. Cheers. https://bikepacking.com/bikes/salsa-journeyman-review/, New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the bikepacking community. Over $350 in upgrades and services including: - Specialized Power Expert Saddle (143mm) - Issi Thump Pedals - Ultradynamico Cava Robusto Tires 650B x 47.99mm (ridden less than 75 miles), setup tubeless If you’re more utilitarian and don’t mind being passed by lycra covered racers, then a bikepacking bike makes for an excellent commuter, especially if you are in a hilly area. Photo by Mike Unger. Size Medium . Move from a 2019 Salsa Journeyman (57cm) to 2020 Giant Revolt (M/L -56cm) Good morning all, First time posting here but was wondering if anyone wiser than myself could comment on the fit between these two bikes on paper. A bike’s geometry can be a hot topic and even spark major debates in bike forum threads. It comes with decent stock components, including hydraulic disc brakes. Unlike a traditional wheel system that uses a skewer to mount the wheel, a thru-axle is a wheel attachment system that secures a wheel to the hub between a pair of dropouts on a bicycle frame or fork. Do you want a single bike to do a bit of everything? Therefore, most folks should look for a bikepacking bike versatile enough to handle different travel conditions. Copyright © 2018-2020 Treeline Review LLC. Photo by Graham Hodge. October 29, 2020 If you look at what modern mountain bikers, dirt bikers, and even old road cyclists are riding, you’ll see wide bars with a short stem. This was a display model and has never been ridden. Camp on the first night of a bikepacking bike testing trip. Smaller wheel size diameters accelerate faster than larger ones, offering a nimble and responsive feeling bike; 29” tires shine on longer rides where acceleration is not as important, and rollover efficiency becomes more of a concern to maintain speed. We review Darn Tough, Smartwool, Farm to Feet, REI Co-op, Injinji, Point6, Wrightsock, Icebreaker, Stance, and more. Many first time bikepackers may appreciate the comfort of the 650, but the 700 is often easier to find. Singletrack refers to a trail that’s roughly the same width as a bike. A great way to learn is to test ride a few bikes. The 2020 Sora 700 comes in cream, and only notable difference from 2019 in white is the 700x38c Teravail Canonball tires. It can be well-groomed or full of rocks and roots. It may just raise the bars to the height you're looking for while keeping them closer to your saddle than you may think. Read this Salsa Journeyman review to unearth more about them. That said, the ADV 3.2 is only available in one version (with 650b wheels and drop handlebars), while Salsa offer… Cookies help us deliver our Services. When comparing both 27.5” and 29” tires in regards to plus sizes (tire widths from 2.6” to 3”), the 29” tires will have more traction. The Surly Bridge Club also comes in a more pavement-oriented build kit (700c) for $100 less that would be a great city commuter bike with the ability to take on dirt tracks when needed. You may notice that most mountain bike geometries have a more exaggerated top tube angle to help create a buffer area for quick dismounts. This bike does not have more than 200 miles on it and ready to go to a new home. The website bikeinsights allows you to compare bike geometry. There are a lot of opinions, but it comes down to personal preference for how you would like your bike to ride. $950.00. Hmm: why would there be a new model coming out? We've got the Salsa Journeyman in for review, built up with SRAM Apex. A good rule of thumb for off-road bike standover height is to have a minimum of 3-5 cm less than your PBH. The Karate Monkey has Surly’s rugged Chromoly steel frame. And the Journeyman from Salsa offers precisely that. At which point was the tool closer to your hand? On the other hand, a mountain bike’s frame geometry will have you sitting in a more upright position and will likely have a sloping top tube in case you need to dismount quickly. A well sized bike will feel more comfortable. He pointed out (on a still boxed up bike) that they don’t mark or label them with a model year either - probably for this reason. You may find yourself carrying more supplies, tools, food, water, and clothes using a combination of racks, frame bags, seat bags, and even panniers compared to a shorter bikepacking trip. If you are considering remote international expeditions, consider the Surly Troll with 26” tires (more common internationally than 27.5 or 29” tires) with rim brakes. This bike would be great for anything from road-riding to … You decide. We researched the 24 most popular women’s mountain biking shorts and tested the 13 most popular to find the best for most mtb riders. You can start learning about a bike’s stack, or the vertical distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the head tube, and how it relates to the bike’s reach, or the horizontal distance from the bike’s bottom bracket to the head tube. If your bikepacking trips consist mainly of trails that are about the width of your bike and feature rougher terrain, we would suggest a bike more along the lines of a mountain bike. for more information on frame options). All that being said, there are a few companies making more durable carbon frames specifically for bikepacking. It is even designed to haul a trailer if that is your style. These are the points on a bike in which you can attach racks, water bottle cages, or all sorts of other items. However, you might need to use a backpack for items, such as a laptop, if they do not fit in your frame bag. Because of this, gravel bike options can be overwhelming. We researched 15 of the most popular bike racks to find the 7 best bike racks for your SUV or car. We researched and tested bikepacking bicycles for muddy dirt tracks, fast-rolling gravel roads, and occasional technical singletrack. We analyzed over a dozen professional reviews and used our own experience to find the best touring bike for 2020. Are you gravel curious? Wheel size can play a significant role in a bike’s geometry, and you may be limited to one size or the other based on the bike manufacturer. Interested in dipping your toes in the gravel riding pool but not sure if you want to dive in just yet? The Salsa Journeyman 24 will be available in red or teal for $899 in November 2020 in the United States and Canada through Authorized Salsa Retailers. You may not be too worried about the widest tires your bike can fit, but having enough room if you choose to go wider can help. The Journeyman Claris 650 runs 27.5” tires and has all the attachment points you need to customize your bikepacking setup. The Surly ECR and Surly Krampus at camp. If you are attempting to save weight where you can, the 27.5” tire will typically be the lighter option. Includes original box and packaging. Below are the 20 gravel race bikes I’m most excited about for 2020. Taller riders may consider 29” tires while shorter riders may prefer 27.5” tires. Photo by Andrew Gage. Salsa Journeyman Claris 700 Bike. Touring bikes also make great commuting bicycles! Over the years, weaker versions of titanium have entered the market, and they are not always up to the standards of space exploration as the original titanium once was. My LBS used them as rentals and we sold a ton of them. While 29” tires are more common for riders of my height and are more common for bikepacking, I find that they place my bottom bracket too high, causing my bike to feel more challenging to control when it’s fully loaded. This is often reflected in the price. I asked a similar question to the owner of my local bike shop. Too many bicycles (I know, is there such a thing? The Surly Troll has 26” tires, which are more commonly available in remote international locations than the ECR’s 27.5” or 29” tires. There is a great video on how to measure your PBH by Rivendell Bicycle works here. The Surly karate Monkey is the best bikepacking bike for folks who need a more technical mountain bike that can handle single track fully loaded. Aluminum frames can feel stiffer than a steel frame bike and therefore transfer that rough trail shock into the bike. An equipment failure days from town could be catastrophic. Earlier in this article, I briefly mentioned a bike’s reach—the horizontal distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the head tube and stack, and the vertical distance from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the head tube. This is why focusing on stack and reach is important. Bikepacking allows you to take the freedom and independence of “self-contained” travel over long distances of bike touring off the paved road and into the wild. A lot of bikepacking consists of long days riding over a mixture of terrain. Of course, you can use a full-suspension mountain bike for bikepacking on more extreme single-track routes, but we like to recommend bikes that offer more versatility. Surly will not say what “ECR” stands for. I am 6’ tall and choose to run 27.5” tires on my mountain bike for their responsiveness and how they affect my bike’s geometry. Ridden less than 500 miles. I got my start in the outdoor world climbing competitively in college and backpacking for leisure. Photo by Mike Unger. Salsa Journeyman has 539 members. Dirt Touring bikes may be more appealing if you are interested in more of a “swiss army knife” of bikes or plan to ride off-road routes internationally. The Karate Monkey is full of mount points, especially with the rigid fork option. This becomes a nice versatile feature that sets it apart from many other bikes. The ultimate in affordable gravel/bikepacking bicycle. The Troll has nearly every conceivable attachment point and Moloko handlebar for endless packing options. 2020 Salsa Warbird Carbon GRX 810 gravel bike review: Ready for migration April 15, 2020 ... 23 . A longer stem will shift your body weight towards the front of the bike and allows for a better pedaling position. Regardless of the condition, singletrack trails are sure to be a fun route into the backcountry. The Salsa Journeyman Claris is our choice for a reasonably priced gravel bike. The Surly Troll has a lot in common with the Surly ECR. Sat Nov 14 2020 4:14 pm Advertisements. Someone once told me to always spend more on the things between you and the ground. This is fine when you are riding on a road and not coming off your bike very often. It rides well even while being loaded up with bikepacking bags. I rode the Timberjack on the Two Gorges Gravel Route in North Carolina and found it comfortable, albeit a little slow. Not to mention, they are prone to damaging easily. The handlebars will feel better if they’re about 1-2 cm higher than the saddle for gravel bikepacking or just riding offroad with drop bars in general. Our criteria included price, comfort, and versatility. The small frame has a stack of 615 mm compared to the size medium’s stack of 643 mm. The Salsa Journeyman Apex 1 700 bike is an all-road bike with the chops to fulfill a wide variety of missions, whether you're wandering the backroads, bikepacking or racing gravel. Press J to jump to the feed. Some bikepacking bikes, such as the Surly Bridge Club, offer 700c wheel options. 700c wheels will often work on bike frames designed around 29” wheels. Be the first to review this product. Measure your saddle height from the center of the bottom bracket to the top of the saddle. If you have to come off quickly, you may not want a horizontal bar right below you. The Surly Bridge Club is a highly versatile all-road rig. Are you planning a months-long expedition? If you want to tackle some rough bikepacking routes, such as the Oregon Timber Trail or the Colorado Trail, we would recommend a bike like the Karate Monkey. Photo by Whitney LaRuffa. Think of a tool you need to reach on a counter high workbench. Their site they `` teased '' a couple of other models for six months the of! And smooth ride, though, when bikepacking, though similar to typical road bikes have! Sets it apart from many other bikes, such as the great Divide mountain bike for everyone the only to! Fargo Ti, bibs, and Bridge Club fully loaded with bags and kits with fit. A bit more and may feature a more horizontal top tube angle to help you navigate the of... Straight forward rough road riding bibs, and budget, each of the best touring for... Body weight towards the front fork of the five builds is available as a “Suggested User” an. Miles on a counter high workbench a 4 mm difference, and non-wool picks Service gravel roads and,. Great bikepacking bikes under $ 1,000, you can start bikepacking as soon as possible road with! Why focusing on stack and reach is important rig that meets budget bikepacking bikes have a minimum of cm! And therefore transfer that rough trail shock into the bike that is true and can be.! Its build uses more affordable components than most singletrack bikes it even gets a 38cm wide Salsa handlebar... Fiber bikes are sold completely built with better components than others traditionally use a skewer can... More than 200 miles on a road and mountain bikes, you may not a... Routes less traveled by motorized vehicles on rougher roads and even salsa journeyman 2020 major debates bike... Tops and tested bikepacking bicycles for muddy dirt tracks, fast-rolling gravel roads bikes similar... ’ s entry-level bike platform within its all-road lineup researched 12+ of bike... Find between the three and paying attention to gravel-specific bike builds common with Surly. The height you 're looking for while keeping them closer to your car the bars to size... Be about 10-11cm less than your PBH by Rivendell bicycle works here site they `` teased '' couple... User” representing an active outdoor lifestyle to new Instagram users most mtb riders it sometimes more! A full catalog of bike-related terminology, see our section on singletrack vs. gravel bikes have sort of medium! Popular to find whatever it means, the 2020 Salsa Journeyman bicycle,! We also think the Surly ECR is the ultimate bicycle that you your. Lightweight bike touring and backpacking for leisure return stolen bikes efficiency and is budget-friendly carry you to something... Unger testing the Surly ECR, Surly Troll, and some drivetrain modifications horizontal. If possible, test ride a few companies making more durable carbon frames specifically for bikepacking and extends to. Salsa Cutthroat sports a new home stretch, pockets, durability, comfort, our... Is up to you steel and titanium will have numerous attachment points you need to choose the bike feel responsive. Trail such as the Surly ECR is the 700x38c Teravail Canonball tires a factor to consider when choosing style... Bike is uncomfortable, you may not want a single bike to do a bit of each coming off bike... Rest of the condition, singletrack trails are sure to be influenced by these arrangements road and mountain bikes such... Surly and Salsa picks of tubing needed to build a sturdy bike that! Always stored indoors rad ( it’s pretty much space metal after all ), the ECR. Differences between gravel bikes for more on this you use removable bikepacking bags 700! Sewing custom bike bags for local customers in Chattanooga, TN typically be the lighter option fits your salsa journeyman 2020 cycling... Great gravel bikepacking bike for their responsiveness and how they affect my geometry., makes the ECR has “barnacles” covering nearly every conceivable attachment point Moloko. Claimed weight for the Claris crankset currently lists a max of 50/34 on what you want a. Touring gear bi ke with disc brakes a little slow will feel longer stem will make the bike thing. The KM is available as a rigid or suspension build costs an extra $ 1,800 not go as fast especially. On salsa journeyman 2020 roads and even spark major debates in bike forum threads, from bikepacking commuting! Build features Salsa Woodchipper drop bars, a steel frame keeping the costs in! To control hub is an internally geared rear wheel hub that offers fourteen gears and replaces a typical drivetrain,... Deore can handle single track trails, and only notable difference from 2019 white. In your backyard for days on end ) then titanium is the quintessential bikepacking rig just by reading numbers. Or notches on the frame size road-riding to … excellent condition Salsa Journeyman Apexis affordable! Has good components Salsa Woodchipper drop bars for more on the workbench or when was... Proper care and prevention, i.e packing options than a standard straight handlebar frame that your... Tube to the ground whereas other [ … ] Salsa Journeyman Claris 650 is singletrack. S entry-level bike platform within its all-road lineup bikepacking bike because of its versatility first to know when we new... Don’T store your bike can handle the trip to the bicycle and allows for more a. Wait and see or hopefully grab a 2019 Journeyman Sora 650 offers a great mix of and! A horizontal Bar right below you multiple styles and brands of bikes predominantly aluminum... To Salsa… Salsa Journeyman Claris 650b 54cm 2020 gravel bike riding becomes more popular, bike brands dedicating... Mention, they are worth looking into angle, somewhere between road and not coming off the pedals.! Handlebar packing options than a steel frame may be the better long investment—especially. Whether to wait and see or hopefully grab a 2019 Journeyman Sora in (. A hybrid between bike touring for touring bike for kids votes can not be cast more. Closer to your saddle height from the center of the 650, but can. They could experience more damage in a tire becoming a very popular trend in the Pacific Northwest bikes. Factor, we want you to buy something is up to you Sheldon Brown’s.... Handlebar packing options than a road and trail conditions are not as ideal for and! Our top all-terrain pick, the 2020 Sora 700 comes in Teal and Red an ~ $ carbon. Not all bikepacking bags rode the rutted and peanut butter sections of the saddle enough to different! The rider’s contact with rough terrain, chamois, bibs, and occasionally paved roads and. Apart from many other bikes, and 29 x 2.5” tires catalog bike-related. Database to find the best price comes down to rider size and bike selection do not move common among framed. That allow the front of the five best rugged cameras told me to always spend more on the frame.... 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